Law, Power, and Justice

Friday 12 January 2024

News Notes:

The Inside Story Podcast (1/6/24)

Interview with Ofer Cassif, Member of Knesset, Gideon Levy, Columnist for Haaretz, and Daniel Levy, President of the US Middle East Project

Israeli government fight over proposed military report assessing the events of Oct 7.

Ofer Cassif:

• The debate within the cabinet is not the main issue.  The first thing that should be done is end the war.  First, the death toll if excessive.  Second, the death toll of the soldiers, and third the risks to the hostages.  This war should not have begun in the first place.  
• “Unfortunately, this government consists of bigots who do not care about the lives, let alone of Palestinians, but not even Israeli soldiers or hostages.  They are just interested in revenge and hatred.  That is the main thing that drives them.

Gideon Levy

• “…the politicians, as usual, are breaking away from any responsibility…historical fiasco on the 7^th, and the politicians are doing everything possible to put the blame only on the army…”
• The main issue is continuing the war, but Israel is behind ending the war at any price. 
• At the end of the day it’s who will be held responsible for all the fiascos.  The politicians already started in the middle of the war without any shame.

Daniel Levy

• The fault line is between those who say “…eradication, let’s have a second Nakva, let’s remove everyone and those who say this is working we have a very good apartheid system in place…occasionally we say to the world we’re ready to do something, but….
• Even when the opposition proposes a separate state, it’s not actually a separate state “a Bantustan homeland” in apartheid system than actual Palestinian freedom…”
• You do not have any party that stands up for Palestinian rights, international law…”
• “…Netanyahu clearly doesn’t want this war to end…”

Ofer Cassif

• Netanyahu “pulls the strings” but he wants us to think he doesn’t.  “Netanyahu is not interested in ending the war because he knows that once the war is over there are two alternatives.  Either to begin another war, which it seems he’s interested to do in the North, or he’s going to pay the price for the fiasco and the responsibility he bears with his government for the…massacre that occurred.”  “He does pull the strings” but he wants to manipulate the public and the international community and to pretend that he is a “hostage” of the larger bigots.  He “manipulates and maneuvers the Israeli public and the international public to get what he personally wants.”
• There are differences of interest between Netanyahu and the “fanatics of the so-called religious Zionism.”  There are differences in intension, but not in practice.  They think the same and do the same.

Gideon Levy

• Question: Former Defense Minister was mentioned, is it the mention of his name that upset the ultra-orthodox said we don’t want mentioned.
• No, they are trying to postpone any investigation.
• There is almost “no one who is clean from any point of view.”
• This is a military investigation, and it is not the investigation that Israel deserves.  They need an independent external investigation by judges not  generals, but this might still come.

Daniel Levy

• Question: Netanyahu is not on good terms with the military establishment.  The military establishment says that Netanyahu doesn’t have a clear plan for how to move forward.  Who do you blame for this vague environment.
• “This remarkable violent destructive campaign….the key thing here is the level of consensus.” 
• The Israeli military was wounded and is happy to pursue this campaign.  You also have a military that increasingly reflects the society.
• The national religious settler community is very much integrated, part of the settler class.  We see the images that are coming out.”
• Change is unlikely to be generated inside the Israeli system.  It will require some external vector.  And the ability for this horrendous killing, and the humanitarian consequences, starvation, disease.  To stop that we need to be cost and consequence.
• But up until now that hasn’t happened. The US has provided Israel with weapons and political cover. 
• We have to look at what South Africa has initiated in the International Criminal court.  Not that this can stop the war, but it can generate pressure.  “As long as Israel is treated with impunity, it will do its worst.”

Ofer Cassif:

• “We do need international pressure, that’s for sure.”
• There must be external and internal pressure.  We go out to the street to demonstrate against the war.  But without international pressure, and with the support of the Biden administration, we can’t stop it.
• “terrible war crimes…the death toll especially of children and the elderly.”
• The South African case is based on things that the members of the Knesset and members of the coalition actually said. 
• Things like elimination, destruction. We cannot ignore that.  “I am in shock” that probably most Israelis support such policies and such language.  And I am in disgust with an international community that does not do anything.  It is in the interest of the Israelis so stop this killing.  The interest of our society is “to be moral.”

Gideon Levy

• Question: The South African complaint is going directly to genocide.  Could this be a decisive moment even though it will take time.
• “It is a beginning.”  It’s not like we have so many tools.  “We are very limited.”  “The support of this war us almost overall support.  I never remember a war in Israel with so little resistance and so little critic…”  The international community continues to “hug Israel.”
• This procedure will take years, but we should start it.

Daniel Levy

• “We see the absolute inadequacy not to say collapse of the international system.”
• I hope that people have given up the illusion that America is a friend here, that America stands up for something in a consistent fashion.
• “there’s no silver bullet” but it’s a “building block.”
• Israelis “will never be liberated from being oppressors if they carry on like that.”

Ofer Cassif

• I still supports a two state solution.  For years we have been saying that “the occupation is going to explode.”
• The “only solution is the two-state solution.”

Gideon Levy

• No.  That is a train that unfortunately has left the station.  There is no room for a real Palestinian state with 700,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank and Jerusalem.  We’d better “stop with this illusion.”  It only works to maintain the occupation.  We must change the narrative to equal rights.  There are two alternatives – it’s either a democracy or an apartheid state. 

Daniel  Levy

• Israel rejected the two state solution.