Law, Power, and Justice

Thursday 18 January 2024

News Notes: Israel

The Inside Story Podcast (1/6/24)

Israeli Cabinet Argument About Military Evaluation

Herzi Halevi, the chief of staff of the Israel Defence Forces

Interview with Ofer Cassif, Member of Knesset, Gideon Levy, Columnist for Haaretz, and Daniel Levy, President of the US Middle East Project

Israeli government fight over proposed military report assessing the events of Oct 7.

Ofer Cassif:

•        The debate within the Israeli.  The most important issue is to end the war.  First, the death toll for civilians is excessive.  Second, the death toll of soldiers is extremely high (and likely to go higher).  Third the risks to the hostages are enormos.  This war should not have begun in the first place. 

•        “Unfortunately, this government consists of bigots who do not care about the lives, let alone of Palestinians, but not even of Israeli soldiers or hostages.  They are just interested in revenge and hatred.  That is the main thing that drives them.

Gideon Levy

•        “…the politicians, as usual, are breaking away from any responsibility…”  It was a historical fiasco on the 7th, and the politicians are doing everything possible to put the blame only on the army…”

•        The main issue is continuing the war, but Israel is behind continuing the war at any price. 

•        At the end of the day it’s a question of who will be held responsible for all the fiascos.  The politicians already started in the middle of the war without any shame, blaming everyone but themselves..

Daniel Levy

•        The fault line is Israel is between those who say “…eradication, let’s have a second Nakba, let’s remove everyone.”  “This is working.  We have a very good apartheid system in place…occasionally we say to the world we’re ready to do something…” But we are not. 

•        Even when the opposition proposes a separate state, it’s not actually a separate state.  It is more like “a Bantustan homeland” in an apartheid system than actual Palestinian freedom…”

•        “You do not have any party that stands up for Palestinian rights, international law…”

•        “…Netanyahu clearly doesn’t want this war to end…”

Ofer Cassif

•        Netanyahu “pulls the strings” but he wants us to think he doesn’t.  “Netanyahu is not interested in ending the war because he knows that once the war is over there are two alternatives.  Either to begin another war, which it seems he’s interested to do in the North, or he’s going to pay the price for the fiasco and the responsibility he bears with his government for the…massacre that occurred.”  “He does pull the strings” but he wants to manipulate the public and the international community and to pretend that he is a “hostage” of the larger bigots.  He “manipulates and maneuvers the Israeli public and the international public to get what he personally wants.”

•        There are differences of interest between Netanyahu and the “fanatics of the so-called religious Zionism.”  There are differences in intention, but not in practice.  In practice, they think the same and do the same.

Gideon Levy

•        Question: During the argument of the cabinet, the former Defense Minister was mentioned.  Is it the mention of his name that upset the ultra-orthodox?  They said we don’t want him mentioned.

•        No, they are just trying to postpone any investigation.  This is a diversion.

•        There is almost “no one who is clean (innocent) from any point of view.”

•        What is being proposed is a military investigation.  It is not the investigation that Israel deserves.”  Israel needs an independent external investigation “by judges not  generals,” but this might still come.

Daniel Levy

•        Question: Netanyahu is not on good terms with the military establishment.  The military establishment says that Netanyahu doesn’t have a clear plan for how to move forward.  Who do you blame for this vague environment?

•        “This is a remarkable, violent, destructive campaign….the key thing here (the remarkable thing) is the level of consensus (within the society).” 

•        The Israeli military was wounded by the 10/7 attack and is happy to pursue this campaign.  But, you also have a military that increasingly reflects the society.

•        The “national religious settler community” is very much integrated, part of the settler class.  We see the images that are coming out.”

•        Because of the consensus, change is unlikely to be generated inside the Israeli system.  It will require some external vector.  And the ability for this horrendous killing, and the humanitarian consequences (starvation, disease) depends on cost and consequence.

•        Up until now that hasn’t happened. The US has provided Israel with the weapons and the political cover to continue. 

•        We have to look (for an external vector) at what South Africa has initiated in the International Criminal Court.  This cannot stop the war, but it can generate pressure.  “As long as Israel is treated with impunity, it will do its worst.”

Ofer Cassif:

•        “We do need international pressure, that’s for sure.”

•        But, there must be external and internal pressure.  We go out to the street to demonstrate against the war (every week).  But without international pressure, and with the support of the Biden administration, we can’t stop it.

•        These are “terrible war crimes…the death toll especially of children and the elderly.”

•        The South African case is based squarely on things that the members of the Knesset and members of the coalition have said. 

•        They have used words like “elimination” and “destruction.”  We cannot ignore that.  “I am in shock” that probably most Israelis support such policies and such language.  And I am in disgust with an international community that does not do anything.  It is in the interest of the Israelis to stop this killing.  The interest of our society is “to be moral.”

Gideon Levy

•        Question: The South African complaint is going directly to genocide.  Could this be a decisive moment even though it will take time?

•        “It is a beginning.”  It’s not like we have so many tools.  “We are very limited.”  “The support of this war is almost overall support.  I never remember a war in Israel with so little resistance and so little critic…”  The international community continues to “hug Israel.”

•        This procedure will take years, but we should start it.

Daniel Levy

•        “We see the absolute inadequacy not to say collapse of the international system.”

•        I hope that people have given up the illusion that America is a friend here, that America stands up for something in a consistent fashion.

•        “There’s no silver bullet” but it’s a “building block.”

•        Israelis “will never be liberated from being oppressors if they carry on like that.”

Ofer Cassif

•        I still supports a two state solution.  For years we have been saying that “the occupation is going to explode.”  And it has.

•        The “only solution is the two-state solution.”

Gideon Levy

•        No.  “That is a train that unfortunately has left the station.”  There is no room for a real Palestinian state with 700,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank and in Jerusalem.  We’d better “stop with this illusion.”  It only works to maintain the occupation.  We must change the narrative to equal rights.  There are two alternatives – it’s either a democracy or an apartheid state. 

Daniel  Levy

•        Israel rejected the two-state solution.